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<jackj.extradots….@windstream.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:42:23 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
><el…@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>>In article
>><1c3a5fc1-93bd-49e0-9e56-c28f44bc5…@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
>> john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>> ³It was a sensation of losing control,² reports 39-year-old Robert
>>> Becker, when he recalls what happened when he tried to slow down at an
>>> intersection near his home on the west side of Manhattan.  All was
>>> going smoothly until he hit a pothole and suddenly, ³the brakes seemed
>>> to release.²  The human resources executive adds that, ³it scared the
>>> hell out of me.  I wasn¹t sure I could stop in time.

>>> He did ­ barely ­ but since then, Becker has had the problem repeat
>>> itself regularly.  And so have a number of other owners of the Gen-3
>>> 2010 Prius, according to complaints filed with the National Highway
>>> Traffic Safety Administration, as well as comments posted on owner
>>> chat sites like PriusChat.com.

>>> Full article at:
>>> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2009/12/is-toyota%E2%80%99s-image-abo...
>>> mble/#more-17086

>>All of this reminds me of when ABS came out, and cops everywhere swore
>>they hated it and that it was useless and that it caused them problems
>>and even crashes.

>>That people are ignorant and can’t figure out what’s happening and/or
>>compensate for it, is a damn shame.

>What is even more of a damn shame is that you have to learn to
>compensate for a ‘safety feature’.  Yes, you can compensate for the
>behavior of an ABS but you shouldn’t have to.  It should operate
>unobtrusively and it should not be fooled by bumps, potholes or
>ripples.  Compensating for unexpected behavior only slows down your
>reaction speed and while it may not directly cause an accident, it can
>be a large contributing factor toward the cause.

There is no need to compensate for the new systems.  Just plant your
foot if your goal is to stop and ignore the pulsations.  

> In article <2hrmj5p57ssgi62dlhe40hnhr5p1cf1…@4ax.com>,
>  Retired VIP <jackj.extradots….@windstream.net> wrote:

> > >That people are ignorant and can’t figure out what’s happening and/or
> > >compensate for it, is a damn shame.

> > What is even more of a damn shame is that you have to learn to
> > compensate for a ‘safety feature’.

> Fact:  cops couldn’t get past the idea that they should NOT pump the
> brakes, that the computer was doing it much faster and more reliably,
> that all they had to do was stand on it and ask the computer to do it.

> It’s not "compensating;" it’s a different thing entirely, because the
> machine got better.

Naw.. The ‘machine’ got feminized..

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<el…@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>In article
><1c3a5fc1-93bd-49e0-9e56-c28f44bc5…@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> ³It was a sensation of losing control,² reports 39-year-old Robert
>> Becker, when he recalls what happened when he tried to slow down at an
>> intersection near his home on the west side of Manhattan.  All was
>> going smoothly until he hit a pothole and suddenly, ³the brakes seemed
>> to release.²  The human resources executive adds that, ³it scared the
>> hell out of me.  I wasn¹t sure I could stop in time.

>> He did ­ barely ­ but since then, Becker has had the problem repeat
>> itself regularly.  And so have a number of other owners of the Gen-3
>> 2010 Prius, according to complaints filed with the National Highway
>> Traffic Safety Administration, as well as comments posted on owner
>> chat sites like PriusChat.com.

>> Full article at:
>> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2009/12/is-toyota%E2%80%99s-image-abo...
>> mble/#more-17086

>All of this reminds me of when ABS came out, and cops everywhere swore
>they hated it and that it was useless and that it caused them problems
>and even crashes.

That’s because many of the early implementations were piss poor.  The
ABS on my 93 Corsica was a joke, the car would have been better off
without it, it’s cycle time was WAY too slow.  Some of the early ABS’s
were a disaster in the snow.  And yes, sometimes it was just
unfamiliarity.  Current ones tend to be quite good.  It’s possible
that in the case of the prius there may be some interaction going on
between the regen braking and real braking and the system is suddenly
just turning off the regen braking.

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>That people are ignorant and can’t figure out what’s happening and/or
>compensate for it, is a damn shame.

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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article
> <1c3a5fc1-93bd-49e0-9e56-c28f44bc5…@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
>  john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> ³It was a sensation of losing control,² reports 39-year-old Robert
>> Becker, when he recalls what happened when he tried to slow down at an
>> intersection near his home on the west side of Manhattan.  All was
>> going smoothly until he hit a pothole and suddenly, ³the brakes seemed
>> to release.²  The human resources executive adds that, ³it scared the
>> hell out of me.  I wasn¹t sure I could stop in time.

>> He did ­ barely ­ but since then, Becker has had the problem repeat
>> itself regularly.  And so have a number of other owners of the Gen-3
>> 2010 Prius, according to complaints filed with the National Highway
>> Traffic Safety Administration, as well as comments posted on owner
>> chat sites like PriusChat.com.

>> Full article at:
>> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2009/12/is-toyota%E2%80%99s-image-abo...
>> mble/#more-17086

> All of this reminds me of when ABS came out, and cops everywhere swore
> they hated it and that it was useless and that it caused them problems
> and even crashes.

> That people are ignorant and can’t figure out what’s happening and/or
> compensate for it, is a damn shame.

I was one of the people that complained about early ABS systems, and in
fact, the issues that were experienced back then sound like the issues
reported with the Prius.  I remember in early 90′s Dodge vans if you hit
a patch of ice with one wheel while braking, the brake pedal would get
hard and the van would stop decelerating.  Really scary, and no way to
"compensate" for it, save for braking even earlier than one would in a
vehicle without ABS.  When a safety "feature" makes a vehicle harder to
control than one without it, that’s a problem.]

But anyway, it does sound from the description like an ABS software issue.

nate

–
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

> In article <2hrmj5p57ssgi62dlhe40hnhr5p1cf1…@4ax.com>,
> Retired VIP <jackj.extradots….@windstream.net> wrote:

>> >That people are ignorant and can’t figure out what’s happening and/or
>> >compensate for it, is a damn shame.

>> What is even more of a damn shame is that you have to learn to
>> compensate for a ‘safety feature’.

> Fact:  cops couldn’t get past the idea that they should NOT pump the
> brakes, that the computer was doing it much faster and more reliably,
> that all they had to do was stand on it and ask the computer to do it.

> It’s not "compensating;" it’s a different thing entirely, because the
> machine got better.

This may be the case with the the 2010 Prius, I don’t know, but the pedal
certainly has a different feel than my 2005 Prius or any other car I’ve
driven.  No resistance for the first inch and non-linear braking (with
respect to pedal pressure) thereafter.   From my perspective, it’s not so
much the difference between friction and regenerative braking but rather the
difference between two hybrids from the same manufacturer but of different
model-years.  The first think I had to do was revert from brushing the brake
with my foot to disengage the cruise to pulling back on the lever.  Old
habits are hard to brake.  (ha ha)

I’ve not experienced anything close to brake failure but I continue to
notice the different feel each time I use the brakes.  Eventually I’ll get
used to it but then every other car I drive will seem strange.

>>> That people are ignorant and can’t figure out what’s happening and/or
>>> compensate for it, is a damn shame.
>> What is even more of a damn shame is that you have to learn to
>> compensate for a ‘safety feature’.

> Fact:  cops couldn’t get past the idea that they should NOT pump the
> brakes, that the computer was doing it much faster and more reliably,
> that all they had to do was stand on it and ask the computer to do it.

> It’s not "compensating;" it’s a different thing entirely, because the
> machine got better.

  They also didn’t slide and instead steered right off the road when
they tried to lock the brakes for a quick sliding turn around.

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<el…@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>In article
><1c3a5fc1-93bd-49e0-9e56-c28f44bc5…@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> ³It was a sensation of losing control,² reports 39-year-old Robert
>> Becker, when he recalls what happened when he tried to slow down at an
>> intersection near his home on the west side of Manhattan.  All was
>> going smoothly until he hit a pothole and suddenly, ³the brakes seemed
>> to release.²  The human resources executive adds that, ³it scared the
>> hell out of me.  I wasn¹t sure I could stop in time.

>> He did ­ barely ­ but since then, Becker has had the problem repeat
>> itself regularly.  And so have a number of other owners of the Gen-3
>> 2010 Prius, according to complaints filed with the National Highway
>> Traffic Safety Administration, as well as comments posted on owner
>> chat sites like PriusChat.com.

>> Full article at:
>> http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2009/12/is-toyota%E2%80%99s-image-abo...
>> mble/#more-17086

>All of this reminds me of when ABS came out, and cops everywhere swore
>they hated it and that it was useless and that it caused them problems
>and even crashes.

>That people are ignorant and can’t figure out what’s happening and/or
>compensate for it, is a damn shame.

What is even more of a damn shame is that you have to learn to
compensate for a ‘safety feature’.  Yes, you can compensate for the
behavior of an ABS but you shouldn’t have to.  It should operate
unobtrusively and it should not be fooled by bumps, potholes or
ripples.  Compensating for unexpected behavior only slows down your
reaction speed and while it may not directly cause an accident, it can
be a large contributing factor toward the cause.

news:2hrmj5p57ssgi62dlhe40hnhr5p1cf1n1h@4ax.com…

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> On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:42:23 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> <el…@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

> >In article
> ><1c3a5fc1-93bd-49e0-9e56-c28f44bc5…@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> > john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:

> >> ³It was a sensation of losing control,² reports 39-year-old Robert
> >> Becker, when he recalls what happened when he tried to slow down at an
> >> intersection near his home on the west side of Manhattan.  All was
> >> going smoothly until he hit a pothole and suddenly, ³the brakes seemed
> >> to release.²  The human resources executive adds that, ³it scared the
> >> hell out of me.  I wasn¹t sure I could stop in time.

> >> He did ­ barely ­ but since then, Becker has had the problem repeat
> >> itself regularly.  And so have a number of other owners of the Gen-3
> >> 2010 Prius, according to complaints filed with the National Highway
> >> Traffic Safety Administration, as well as comments posted on owner
> >> chat sites like PriusChat.com.

> >> Full article at:

http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2009/12/is-toyota%E2%80%99s-image-abo...

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> >> mble/#more-17086

> >All of this reminds me of when ABS came out, and cops everywhere swore
> >they hated it and that it was useless and that it caused them problems
> >and even crashes.

> >That people are ignorant and can’t figure out what’s happening and/or
> >compensate for it, is a damn shame.

> What is even more of a damn shame is that you have to learn to
> compensate for a ‘safety feature’.  Yes, you can compensate for the
> behavior of an ABS but you shouldn’t have to.  It should operate
> unobtrusively and it should not be fooled by bumps, potholes or
> ripples.  Compensating for unexpected behavior only slows down your
> reaction speed and while it may not directly cause an accident, it can
> be a large contributing factor toward the cause.

The only compensation a driver need do is not
freak-out at the sound or pedal sensation which
hardly negatively affects transient response time.

On Dec 29, 8:21 pm, john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:

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>All was
> going smoothly until he hit a pothole and suddenly, “the brakes seemed
> to release.”  The human resources executive adds that, “it scared the
> hell out of me.  I wasn’t sure I could stop in time.