The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so
no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
"In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment
a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
introducing a short between two circuits.
Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety
Research & Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota
electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar
failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne."
http://wardsauto.com/home/toyota_still_looking_100223/
"john" <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:632aabcb-70bd-4397-879b-f6da50eb972f@l12g2000prg.googlegroups.com…
> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so
> no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment
> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
> introducing a short between two circuits.
> Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety
> Research & Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota
> electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar
> failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne."
> http://wardsauto.com/home/toyota_still_looking_100223/
Dick Cheney says, you are easily led, like a sheep, one person
purposely trying to make something fail probably can,
however your car probably crashed because your dear wife
stuck her hoof on the wrong pedal.
— news://freenews.netfront.net/ – complaints: n…@netfront.net —
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:47:06 -0800, john wrote:
> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the problems.
> The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so no real
> solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
Near as I can see, you’re the only confused thing I can see around here.
IMO, of course.
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On 02/23/2010 05:47 PM, john wrote:
> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so
> no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
"in your opinion"? are you a software engineer? are you an electrical
engineer? are you /any/ form of engineer?
> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment
> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
> introducing a short between two circuits.
> Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety
> Research& Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota
> electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar
> failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne."
> http://wardsauto.com/home/toyota_still_looking_100223/
and we can find "witnesses" that will stand up and allege that their
vehicle’s throttle, brakes, transmission and ignition all failed
simultaneously. but not as simultaneously as their credibility.
–
nomina rutrum rutrum
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On Feb 23, 7:47 pm, john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so
> no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment
> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
> introducing a short between two circuits.
> Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety
> Research & Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota
> electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar
> failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne."
> http://wardsauto.com/home/toyota_still_looking_100223/
I thought it was 70% of complaints lodged going back to 02 or near,
not 70% of affected cars.
Im sure they know the reason why it happens, toyotas beancounters
just figure its cheaper to ignore it and too hard to prove. You see
eventualy all the defect cars will be totaled out and there wont be
any proof, the rest die by attrition, so the problem dissapears
magicly.
It just takes time, a bit of lobbying, and a few employees that used
to work for the NHTSA squash a few investigations, and its like it
never happened.
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On Feb 23, 8:47 pm, john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment
> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
> introducing a short between two circuits.
super!
now ask Gilbert to reproduce his results on a Camry.
and/or
ask Gilbert to visit a factory to see if there’s a chance that the
circuits may be shorted during assembly.
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On Feb 23, 8:47 pm, john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so
> no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment
> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
> introducing a short between two circuits.
> Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety
> Research & Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota
> electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar
> failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne."
> http://wardsauto.com/home/toyota_still_looking_100223/
From the preliminary report/testimony, Dr Gilbert had shorted out two
sensors to the accelerator making the ECU believe that the pedal was
being continually pressed. Dr Gilbert argues to Toyota that the
accelerator circuitry lacks and need a fail-safe system for when
this condition occurs. Toyota’s engineers were able to reproduce
this condition but said that what Dr. Gilbert did amounted to
"cheating" ( that is to say that the conditions Dr Gilbert used
to induce acceleration could not happen on its own in
the real world without explicit human intervention). Dr Gilbert
argued that the condition he created in the two unnamed accelerator
sensor circuits could be caused by condensation which would
evaporate before crash investigators could identify it; however,
as of this time, there is no evidence to support this.
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On Feb 23, 7:47 pm, john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so
> no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
Or it’s simple pedal misapplication, which is the most common cause of SUA
by far, and is essentially out of /any/ automaker’s control.
>> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
>> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment
>> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
>> introducing a short between two circuits.
>> Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety
>> Research & Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota
>> electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar
>> failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne."
The lab that Toyota retained managed to reproduce Gilbert’s result, but
said that they found it extremely unlikely that such an event could
actually occur in the real world.
–
Tegger
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:22:58 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <inva…@invalid.inv>
wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> On Feb 23, 7:47 pm, john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
>> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so
>> no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
>Or it’s simple pedal misapplication, which is the most common cause of SUA
>by far, and is essentially out of /any/ automaker’s control.
>>> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
>>> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment
>>> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
>>> introducing a short between two circuits.
>>> Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety
>>> Research & Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota
>>> electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar
>>> failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne."
>The lab that Toyota retained managed to reproduce Gilbert’s result, but
>said that they found it extremely unlikely that such an event could
>actually occur in the real world.
I’ve been following this pretty closely. since I’m retired (-:
Watched hours of hearings, read many articles, etc.
A few points.
Exponent, the lab Toyota hired, is suspect, because their client is
Toyota. Just works that way. You need an independent lab.
Gilbert’s findings, though he is sincere, are suspect, because they
haven’t been tied to the real world.
The problem is – nobody has really defined a widespread problem.
Sure, the mats – that’s been taken care.
The sticky pedals – that’s been taken care of.
The need for brake over ride circuitry – that will happen.
The Lexus engine shutdown issue – don’t know what’s in the works, but
I expect that delayed button will be replaced with a positive instant
means to shot down – could still be a button.
What’s left – from what I’ve seen – is a couple believable cases of
"unintended acceleration"
Where the engine revs on it’s own to the limiter.
That weird stuff happened to the Smith woman who testified, and
it happened to a guy who testified on the second day.
These were clear cases of electronic wildly controlling the engine
with no human input.
Nobody has figured those out. Might have nothing to do with pedal
circuitry.
I’ve mentioned before I experienced this in ’85 TBI 2.0 Cavalier.
Didn’t go wide open, but would push the car to 50mph with no pedal
input. Brakes easily handled it.
Turned out it was the ECU, which failed entirely a maybe a week after
the problem started.
Most likely an attached scanner could have quickly found the issue,
because though it was intermittent, you didn’t have to wait long for
it to happen, and it could be reproduced just by driving for about 5
miles.
But it is possible that a confluence of conditions messing with modern
design electronic signals, combined with hardware anomalies/tolerances
can make this kind of thing happen again, and it will be hell to
reproduce it.
That’s why brake overrides and a simple means to shut down are
necessities.
My bottom line on this is the big problems are Toyota not jumping hard
on the mat and pedal problems, the Toyota memo about saving $100
million by forestalling recalls, the oily relationship between mfgs
and NHTSA because of revolving doors, and – the biggest of all – the
cell phone call from the car of the highway patrolman as he and his
family went to flaming death.
That cell phone call is what has really screwed Toyota.
But hell, the car was a loner from a Toyota dealership, the previous
driver had the same issue, and I think the mat issue was supposed to
be taken care of. So they bought that one with eyes wide open.
With millions of cars on the road this "unintended acceleration" won’t
go away. Glitches are going to happen. But it can be contained.
Aside from that lame delayed Lexus shutdown, I certainly don’t think
Toyotas are more dangerous than other cars,
But I’m not the general public or Congress.
–Vic
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On 02/25/2010 06:04 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:22:58 +0000 (UTC), Tegger<inva…@invalid.inv>
> wrote:
>> On Feb 23, 7:47 pm, john<johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
>>> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so
>>> no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
>> Or it’s simple pedal misapplication, which is the most common cause of SUA
>> by far, and is essentially out of /any/ automaker’s control.
>>>> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
>>>> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab environment
>>>> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
>>>> introducing a short between two circuits.
>>>> Gilbert, whose research was sponsored by consumer advocacy firm Safety
>>>> Research& Strategies, says it was fairly simple to confuse the Toyota
>>>> electronics, but he has so far been unable to introduce a similar
>>>> failure in the electronic controls for a Buick Lucerne."
>> The lab that Toyota retained managed to reproduce Gilbert’s result, but
>> said that they found it extremely unlikely that such an event could
>> actually occur in the real world.
> I’ve been following this pretty closely. since I’m retired (-:
> Watched hours of hearings, read many articles, etc.
> A few points.
> Exponent, the lab Toyota hired, is suspect, because their client is
> Toyota. Just works that way. You need an independent lab.
> Gilbert’s findings, though he is sincere, are suspect, because they
> haven’t been tied to the real world.
> The problem is – nobody has really defined a widespread problem.
> Sure, the mats – that’s been taken care.
> The sticky pedals – that’s been taken care of.
> The need for brake over ride circuitry – that will happen.
> The Lexus engine shutdown issue – don’t know what’s in the works, but
> I expect that delayed button will be replaced with a positive instant
> means to shot down – could still be a button.
> What’s left – from what I’ve seen – is a couple believable cases of
> "unintended acceleration"
> Where the engine revs on it’s own to the limiter.
> That weird stuff happened to the Smith woman who testified, and
> it happened to a guy who testified on the second day.
> These were clear cases of electronic wildly controlling the engine
> with no human input.
> Nobody has figured those out. Might have nothing to do with pedal
> circuitry.
> I’ve mentioned before I experienced this in ’85 TBI 2.0 Cavalier.
> Didn’t go wide open, but would push the car to 50mph with no pedal
> input. Brakes easily handled it.
> Turned out it was the ECU, which failed entirely a maybe a week after
> the problem started.
> Most likely an attached scanner could have quickly found the issue,
> because though it was intermittent, you didn’t have to wait long for
> it to happen, and it could be reproduced just by driving for about 5
> miles.
> But it is possible that a confluence of conditions messing with modern
> design electronic signals, combined with hardware anomalies/tolerances
> can make this kind of thing happen again, and it will be hell to
> reproduce it.
this is just vague hand waving and guesswork by people completely
unfamiliar with the reality.
> That’s why brake overrides and a simple means to shut down are
> necessities.
they won’t stop the incompetent pressing the wrong pedal and swearing it
was the car’s fault.
> My bottom line on this is the big problems are Toyota not jumping hard
> on the mat and pedal problems, the Toyota memo about saving $100
> million by forestalling recalls, the oily relationship between mfgs
> and NHTSA because of revolving doors, and – the biggest of all – the
> cell phone call from the car of the highway patrolman as he and his
> family went to flaming death.
double-standard bullshit. frod bribed the entire congress into
accepting a lie about tires being at fault for a fundamentally flawed
vehicle design. where the heck were all you guys then?
> That cell phone call is what has really screwed Toyota.
> But hell, the car was a loner from a Toyota dealership, the previous
> driver had the same issue, and I think the mat issue was supposed to
> be taken care of. So they bought that one with eyes wide open.
> With millions of cars on the road this "unintended acceleration" won’t
> go away. Glitches are going to happen. But it can be contained.
> Aside from that lame delayed Lexus shutdown, I certainly don’t think
> Toyotas are more dangerous than other cars,
> But I’m not the general public or Congress.
> –Vic
here’s the acid test: why haven’t i experienced these problems when
i’ve been driving toyota’s?
–
nomina rutrum rutrum
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
"john" <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:632aabcb-70bd-4397-879b-f6da50eb972f@l12g2000prg.googlegroups.com…
> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known
> so
> no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab
> environment
> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
> introducing a short between two circuits.
Consider who is paying for this research….Trail Lawyers!
This is eerily like the Audi 5000 frenzy. When 60 minutes did their
hatchet job on the 5000, they produced an "expert" who "proved" that
the 5000′s automatic transmission could force a kick down of the
accelerator pedal, resulting in sudden acceleration. Good old Ed
Bradly presented this as some sort of scientific proof. Only later did
we learn (and not from CBS) that the expert added an extra hydraulic
pump and external piping to demonstarte this "failure" mode.
There may or may not be an actual problem with the Toyota electronics.
But an "expert" that creates shorts to "prove" there is a problem is
not the sort of expert I trust.
Ed
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 06:23:33 -0800, jim beam <m…@privacy.net> wrote:
>> But it is possible that a confluence of conditions messing with modern
>> design electronic signals, combined with hardware anomalies/tolerances
>> can make this kind of thing happen again, and it will be hell to
>> reproduce it.
>this is just vague hand waving and guesswork by people completely
>unfamiliar with the reality.
The ones familiar with the realty get to testify before Congress.
>> That’s why brake overrides and a simple means to shut down are
>> necessities.
>they won’t stop the incompetent pressing the wrong pedal and swearing it
>was the car’s fault.
Nope. But it will largely cover the auto mgf’s ass.
>> My bottom line on this is the big problems are Toyota not jumping hard
>> on the mat and pedal problems, the Toyota memo about saving $100
>> million by forestalling recalls, the oily relationship between mfgs
>> and NHTSA because of revolving doors, and – the biggest of all – the
>> cell phone call from the car of the highway patrolman as he and his
>> family went to flaming death.
>double-standard bullshit. frod bribed the entire congress into
>accepting a lie about tires being at fault for a fundamentally flawed
>vehicle design. where the heck were all you guys then?
"Us guys?" I don’t drive Fords.
>here’s the acid test: why haven’t i experienced these problems when
>i’ve been driving toyota’s?
Hey, that’s been my acid test with Chevys.
You buy that, then the general public will buy what you’re selling.
–Vic
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
"Tegger" <inva…@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9D2A4B185CB99tegger@208.90.168.18…
> Or it’s simple pedal misapplication, which is the most common cause
> of SUA
> by far, and is essentially out of /any/ automaker’s control.
Not really – software that recognized both pedals are pressed could
cut power to the engine. The shift interlocks that force you to press
on the brakes before shifting into gear were a "fix" for the Audi 5000
UA concerns. If the Safety Nazis get there way, there will be so many
fixes for potential/theoretical driver errors, that cars won’t be
usable, or affordable.
Ed
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
Tegger wrote:
> The lab that Toyota retained managed to reproduce Gilbert’s result, but
> said that they found it extremely unlikely that such an event could
> actually occur in the real world.
The problem here is that people just don’t understand the mathematics of
probability theory. Something that occurs once in 100,000 vehicles over
a 5 year period is "extremely unlikely," I think everyone can agree. But
if there are 8 million vehicles on the road, that is 8 million "tries"
and statistically the event should happen 80 times in 5 years.
No manufacturer is EVER going to make it 100% certain that the ECU
doesn’t get a false wide-open throttle command for the simple reason
that there are electromechanical sensors involved which can fail, and
wiring can fail. That can be made very rare, but not absolutely impossible.
What every other manufacturer DOES do is put in logic so that touching
the brake pedal immediately overrides the wide-open throttle command and
brings the engine back to idle, even if its still getting a WOT command
from the (faulty) pedal mechanism or wiring.
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
"jim beam" <m…@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:ksWdnXsZp4N7GhvWnZ2dnUVZ_oqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net…
> double-standard bullshit. frod bribed the entire congress into
> accepting a lie about tires being at fault for a fundamentally
> flawed vehicle design. where the heck were all you guys then?
You have to quit repeating this lie. Explorers were no more
"fundamentally flawed" than other mid sized SUVs from the 1990′s. As I
have pointed out to you multiple times, the accident rates, injury
rates, rollover rates, etc. for Explorers were actually better than
for most competitive vehciels and far better than for 4Runners from
that period. Explorers actually had much lower injury rates that
"Average" vehciles in that time period. The facts are out there. You
prefer to ignore those and it makes you look like a lair.
Trying to deflect attention from the Toyota problems by lying is a sad
tactic.
Ed
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
The important question is – who is funding Dr. Gilbert’s "research?
My understanding is that it is funded by trail lawyers. Trail lawyers
don’t care about facts or truth, except as they can be twisted to suit
their purposes. They have no problems at all misrepresenting the facts
in an attempt to extort moeny from corporations (and of course,
eventually from "us").
Ed
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
"Vic Smith" <thismailautodele…@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:31uco5pm34c0aupnah8d0lsh3g3ttkq4kt@4ax.com…
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:22:58 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <inva…@invalid.inv>
> wrote:
>> On Feb 23, 7:47 pm, john <johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
>>> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known so
>>> no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
> –Vic
> <SNIP>
<SNIP>
My take on the sudden, uncontrolled acceleration is that it’s root cause is
tucked away somewhere in the electronics. Has anyone ever got involved in
dealing with RFI (Radio Frequency Interference)? I’ve dealt with two
interesting cases where RFI caused a significant problem in aircraft. One,
complete loss of engine power. Cause was a radar signal that triggered the
closing of a fuel Shut-Off Valve. Happened every time an aircraft
(helicopter) flew past a particular radar station. The second, also a
helicopter, two engines: Every time the pilot pushed the transmit button on
his high frequency radio one engine rolled all the way back to its Idle
setting–it recovered as soon as he released the button. The cause of both
incidents was improper shielding of the aircraft wiring harnesses. The
aircraft manufacturer was sloppy in his design–improved shielding fixed
both problems. Cars now are more and more dependent on electronics and
somehow can’t shake the feeling that spurious signals are causing some of
these unexplained incidents. As a side note; military electronics are
subjected to rigid testing; bombarded with all kinds of RFI signals to
determine if there is any undesirable behavior. I doubt if the automotive
industry comes anywhere close to that kind of testing or evaluation.
MLD
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
"C. E. White" <cewhi…@mindspring.com> wrote in news:hm66bl$rnb$1
@news.eternal-september.org:
> "jim beam" <m…@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:ksWdnXsZp4N7GhvWnZ2dnUVZ_oqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net…
>> double-standard bullshit. frod bribed the entire congress into
>> accepting a lie about tires being at fault for a fundamentally
>> flawed vehicle design. where the heck were all you guys then?
> You have to quit repeating this lie. Explorers were no more
> "fundamentally flawed" than other mid sized SUVs from the 1990′s. As I
> have pointed out to you multiple times, the accident rates, injury
> rates, rollover rates, etc. for Explorers were actually better than
> for most competitive vehciels and far better than for 4Runners from
> that period. Explorers actually had much lower injury rates that
> "Average" vehciles in that time period.
The two vehicles are not really comparable. The Explorer and the 4Runner
attracted different markets, with the 4Runner’s market being younger.
Younger is generally associated with higher accident claims.
I’ve never driven an Explorer, but I did spend two weeks driving an Escape,
a few years ago. I was quite impressed with the truck’s handling. For such
a tall vehicle, it was surprisingly nimble and well-controlled. Had I been
in the market for a small domestic SUV, I think the Escape would have been
my choice.
–
Tegger
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
"C. E. White" <cewhi…@mindspring.com> wrote in news:hm661q$p58$1
@news.eternal-september.org:
> "Tegger" <inva…@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9D2A4B185CB99tegger@208.90.168.18…
>> Or it’s simple pedal misapplication, which is the most common cause
>> of SUA
>> by far, and is essentially out of /any/ automaker’s control.
> Not really – software that recognized both pedals are pressed could
> cut power to the engine.
Which Toyota is doing.
But that doesn’t affect pedal misapplication if only ONE pedal is
depressed. That situation covers the overwhleming majority of SUA
incidents.
> The shift interlocks that force you to press
> on the brakes before shifting into gear were a "fix" for the Audi 5000
> UA concerns. If the Safety Nazis get there way, there will be so many
> fixes for potential/theoretical driver errors, that cars won’t be
> usable, or affordable.
And somebody, somewhere, will still find a way to make a car run away with
itself anyway. At some point you have to give SOME sort of control to the
driver. and ANY sort of control of ANY kind carries SOME degree of risk.
Life is dangerous. And it’s imperfect. And it is risky. At some point you
have to accept those facts, be your own last line of defense, and stop
blaming others.
–
Tegger
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
In article <Xns9D2AB50D8C0F4teg…@208.90.168.18>, inva…@invalid.inv
says…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> "C. E. White" <cewhi…@mindspring.com> wrote in news:hm66bl$rnb$1
> @news.eternal-september.org:
> > "jim beam" <m…@privacy.net> wrote in message
> > news:ksWdnXsZp4N7GhvWnZ2dnUVZ_oqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net…
> >> double-standard bullshit. frod bribed the entire congress into
> >> accepting a lie about tires being at fault for a fundamentally
> >> flawed vehicle design. where the heck were all you guys then?
> > You have to quit repeating this lie. Explorers were no more
> > "fundamentally flawed" than other mid sized SUVs from the 1990′s. As I
> > have pointed out to you multiple times, the accident rates, injury
> > rates, rollover rates, etc. for Explorers were actually better than
> > for most competitive vehciels and far better than for 4Runners from
> > that period. Explorers actually had much lower injury rates that
> > "Average" vehciles in that time period.
> The two vehicles are not really comparable. The Explorer and the 4Runner
> attracted different markets, with the 4Runner’s market being younger.
> Younger is generally associated with higher accident claims.
> I’ve never driven an Explorer, but I did spend two weeks driving an Escape,
> a few years ago. I was quite impressed with the truck’s handling. For such
> a tall vehicle, it was surprisingly nimble and well-controlled. Had I been
> in the market for a small domestic SUV, I think the Escape would have been
> my choice.
Tegger,
The Escape is not a truck-based SUV. It’s chassis is a modified version
of the old Mazda 626 from when Ford had a large share in Mazda. It’s
also used in the Mazda Tribute. They are both made on the same assembly
line, although very few parts are interchangeable.
Bob
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
bob <nottooslo…@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:MPG.25f0d7f324b7197098974f@news.eternal-september.org:
> In article <Xns9D2AB50D8C0F4teg…@208.90.168.18>, inva…@invalid.inv
> says…
>> I’ve never driven an Explorer, but I did spend two weeks driving an
>> Escape, a few years ago. I was quite impressed with the truck’s
>> handling. For such a tall vehicle, it was surprisingly nimble and
>> well-controlled. Had I been in the market for a small domestic SUV, I
>> think the Escape would have been my choice.
> Tegger,
> The Escape is not a truck-based SUV.
But it is officially classed by the federal government as a "light truck",
so my terminology is accurate as far as the legal definitions are
concerned.
–
Tegger
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
In article <Xns9D2ACD6CCA8C7teg…@208.90.168.18>, inva…@invalid.inv
says…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> bob <nottooslo…@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:MPG.25f0d7f324b7197098974f@news.eternal-september.org:
> > In article <Xns9D2AB50D8C0F4teg…@208.90.168.18>, inva…@invalid.inv
> > says…
> >> I’ve never driven an Explorer, but I did spend two weeks driving an
> >> Escape, a few years ago. I was quite impressed with the truck’s
> >> handling. For such a tall vehicle, it was surprisingly nimble and
> >> well-controlled. Had I been in the market for a small domestic SUV, I
> >> think the Escape would have been my choice.
> > Tegger,
> > The Escape is not a truck-based SUV.
> But it is officially classed by the federal government as a "light truck",
> so my terminology is accurate as far as the legal definitions are
> concerned.
Tegger,
OK. Perhaps were should call it a compact cross-over SUV:-) At least
that’s what most of the auto rags call it.
Bob
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On 02/25/2010 06:56 AM, C. E. White wrote:
> "john"<johngd…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:632aabcb-70bd-4397-879b-f6da50eb972f@l12g2000prg.googlegroups.com…
>> The floor mats and sticking pedal accounts for only 30% of the
>> problems. The true cause of sudden acceleration is still not known
>> so
>> no real solution is possible. IMO it’s the electronics.
>> "In earlier testimony, David Gilbert, a Southern Illinois University
>> professor, tells the panel he was able to produce in a lab
>> environment
>> a sudden-acceleration incident using a Toyota vehicle, in essence by
>> introducing a short between two circuits.
> Consider who is paying for this research….Trail Lawyers!
"trail" lawyers? com on ed, when you regurgitate the copy your minions
draft for you, you really should proof read it before you put your name
to it.
besides, since when was a lawyer’s ability to subpoena factual evidence
the lawyer’s fault? if frod hadn’t done the math on cost of payouts to
the families of the bereaved vs. profits on a vehicle they knew to be
flawed, neither i nor any "trail" lawyer would be able to confront you
with reality.
> This is eerily like the Audi 5000 frenzy. When 60 minutes did their
> hatchet job on the 5000, they produced an "expert" who "proved" that
> the 5000′s automatic transmission could force a kick down of the
> accelerator pedal, resulting in sudden acceleration. Good old Ed
> Bradly presented this as some sort of scientific proof. Only later did
> we learn (and not from CBS) that the expert added an extra hydraulic
> pump and external piping to demonstarte this "failure" mode.
> There may or may not be an actual problem with the Toyota electronics.
> But an "expert" that creates shorts to "prove" there is a problem is
> not the sort of expert I trust.
that’s because you’re a paid shill ed, and you have no technical
expertise. seriously, if you could actually /do/ anything of societal
value, you’d be doing it rather than poisoning the interweb with
bullshit for money.
> Ed
–
nomina rutrum rutrum
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On 02/25/2010 07:52 AM, C. E. White wrote:
> "jim beam"<m…@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:ksWdnXsZp4N7GhvWnZ2dnUVZ_oqdnZ2d@speakeasy.net…
>> double-standard bullshit. frod bribed the entire congress into
>> accepting a lie about tires being at fault for a fundamentally
>> flawed vehicle design. where the heck were all you guys then?
> You have to quit repeating this lie. Explorers were no more
> "fundamentally flawed" than other mid sized SUVs from the 1990′s. As I
> have pointed out to you multiple times, the accident rates, injury
> rates, rollover rates, etc. for Explorers were actually better than
> for most competitive vehciels and far better than for 4Runners from
> that period.
only after you’ve massaged the numbers. the /real/ data, the nhtsa’s
"single vehicle rollover fatalities per million driver miles" had the
exploder as a standout "winner" of the "kill your driver" contest by a
margin of about 3x.
> Explorers actually had much lower injury rates that
> "Average" vehciles in that time period. The facts are out there. You
> prefer to ignore those and it makes you look like a lair.
carefully selected bullshit ed. and you know it. because you’re paid
to know it.
> Trying to deflect attention from the Toyota problems by lying is a sad
> tactic.
oh, ed, i’m sad alright – i keep pointing out your hypocrisy, double
standards, deceit and bullshit.
> Ed
–
nomina rutrum rutrum
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am
On 02/25/2010 02:54 PM, Tegger wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> "C. E. White"<cewhi…@mindspring.com> wrote in news:hm661q$p58$1
> @news.eternal-september.org:
>> "Tegger"<inva…@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9D2A4B185CB99tegger@208.90.168.18…
>>> Or it’s simple pedal misapplication, which is the most common cause
>>> of SUA
>>> by far, and is essentially out of /any/ automaker’s control.
>> Not really – software that recognized both pedals are pressed could
>> cut power to the engine.
> Which Toyota is doing.
> But that doesn’t affect pedal misapplication if only ONE pedal is
> depressed. That situation covers the overwhleming majority of SUA
> incidents.
>> The shift interlocks that force you to press
>> on the brakes before shifting into gear were a "fix" for the Audi 5000
>> UA concerns. If the Safety Nazis get there way, there will be so many
>> fixes for potential/theoretical driver errors, that cars won’t be
>> usable, or affordable.
> And somebody, somewhere, will still find a way to make a car run away with
> itself anyway. At some point you have to give SOME sort of control to the
> driver. and ANY sort of control of ANY kind carries SOME degree of risk.
> Life is dangerous. And it’s imperfect. And it is risky. At some point you
> have to accept those facts, be your own last line of defense, and stop
> blaming others.
but ed’s /paid/ to blame others…
–
nomina rutrum rutrum
Comment by admin — March 10, 2010 @ 3:08 am